I think at least half of it was in Bullinger's How to enjoy the Bible.. bits and pieces scattered around. "Verily I say unto you today" under punctuation, the lady with multi-husbands under "Context essential".. have to look later.
According to twi material, the book Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was introduced to E.W. Bullinger's research and work in 1953. After Rosalind Rinker gave the Companion Bible to vpw as a gift, vpw purchased and acquired all of Bullinger's work and devoured it.
Hmmmmm.....1953 - 1967 is FOURTEEN YEARS before the pfal class was filmed. And, some of these other books "of vpw" didn't go to the publishers until the mid-70s.
I find it amusing that Bullinger's article approches the subject with a question mark......"The Rich Man and Lazaruz: An Intermediate State?" And, wierwille approaches the topic in the same manner....."Are the Dead Alive Now?"
Be aware that there are VPW devotees who simply refuse to admit that VPW was guilty of plagiarism to any degree even when shown side by side comparisons. In this case I'm thinking of the RTHS book as opposed to ATDAN.
The VPW devotee usually has at least 3 arguments in this area though don't expect them to be responsive to the answers. After all they are basically still very much enchanted with the VPW "mystique" and will typically reject any and all criticisms of VPW.
1) So what if he plagiarized ? Its God's word no matter who writes it down...
Oh really ? And who says that the books "authored" by VPW are commonly accepted as being right on anyway ? Lots of his "teachings" simply combine 50s pop pyschology (believing=receiving) with teachings from Leonard and Stiles and others. So can the VPW devotee say that all those sources are "of God" ? Gee. You would have to go to the "original text" to check that out. But wait. Those words were written by someone else.. other men.. yet they neve claimed that their "research" was "god breathed" or worse, a valid substitute for the bible and reading it on your own without writing entire chapters of PFAL into the margin. VPW claimed that God showed him all this stuff. If that were true then why do we have near identity in some cases to pre-existing published works. Interesting. I mean hey this inside info that god gave VPW was supposed to be teaching the word as it hadn't been taught since the first century. Looks he got scooped by some other guys though. It must have been a trick of the "day-vil" that there were these identities.
Well the VPW addict would claim that Leonard and Stiles were "right on" simply not to the lose the argument. But VPW just repackaged what someone else wrote. In the case of the "law of believing" it was 50s pop mentality (Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz all of whom predated VPW's "law of believing" yet had extremely similar messages.
But just how does one "prove" that the so called "law of believing" works for saint or sinner alike. It failed miserably for VPW and its failed for many people and this was supposed to be the foundation of the foundational class ! And this is but ONE example of the flawed teachings of PFAL. And "get your needs and wants parallel" ! What the HELL did that ever mean and how would you do that ? I never got the same explanation twice from anyone in TWI not even from the so called "heavyweights". One guy just said "well you just have to accept some things without analyzing it too much". Wow. Such helpful instruction. And it was supposed to "mathematically exact" and "scientifically precise" though no one could explain it.
2) "VPW didn't plagiarize. Why back at a Corps meeting I heard him openly credit Stiles and Leonard so he fulfilled his obligation".
Wrong.... There are accepted practices for acknowledging the works of others as you prepare and publish your own work. These practices require complaince with style standards all of which demand a bibliography and proper footnotes
even when paraphrasing the words of another. Verbal attribution is NOT an acceptable substitute for proper, written acknowledgement. Not doing so in academic settings and legitimate publishing circles can be a career ender.
VPW self published through TWI (aka "vanity published") to escape the usual and customary editorial review processes that accompany the publication of books.
There were no editors (at least not anyone who wasn't a yes man for Vic) to say "well this looks like something else I've seen before" or to say "are you sure you have submitted your complete bibliography" or "wow. you make some interesting conclusions here. When did this idea come to you ? Is this an extension of your doctoral thesis ?" Vic didnt' want that scrutiny because he was anxious to publish and he could not be bothered with the heat (and rejection) he would endure had he attempted publication through established christian publication houses or academic journals. Its trivial to set up your
own publishing house and pay for someone to bind your "masterpiece". After all if its written down then it MUST be true right ?
Even more discouraging is an astonishing lack of understanding among many Way followers (past and present) that plagiarism is a very,very serious offense in academic circles that can end a career. Since VPW did have some legitimate education he would have known this (though his "doctorate" was a joke which the devotees still have problems admitting). But just because a given Way follower is ignorant of the graivty of plagiarism doesn't mean that he or she can let VPW off the hook for ripping off someone else.
3) If VPW did plagiarize then why wasn't he pursued by Stiles and Leonard or Bullinger ? Obviously they didn't care so its all good therefore no wrong was done.
Who knows ? Were they even aware that it had happened ? WHEN were they made aware ? Do you know for sure or is it specualtion on your part ? Even if they did know about early on and refused to do anything about it, its still WRONG ! Thats like saying that stealing anything is fine and as long as you don't punished its not a crime ! Or that the person you stole from doesn't seem to care that you did steal so it must be okay. Thats some whacked biblical logic yet many former Way supporters think like this relative to VPW. Baloney...Of course its a crime you just didn't get punished for it. Count yourself lucky. Stealing from someone is always wrong whether or not the victim knows about it or even if he doesn't seem to care.
Check out some web resources on plagiarism. Do your own web search but here are a
Bullinger was dead by the time Wierwille did PFAL, as was Ruben Archer Torrey, Smith Wigglesworth, Albert Benjamin Simpson. Cliffe, Starr Daily , Glenn Clark, Edward William Kenyon(Dead by 1947), Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, Robert Schuller, Kenneth Hagin, Jerome Edwin Stiles, Brian George(or is it Gregory?)
Leonard did not have the time or money or knowledge to pursue it.
Even if you found a way to express Staffen's idea without using any of her original words, that would still constitute plagiarism. Sorry. If you're going to use someone else's words and/or ideas, you have to give them due credit.
Mr. Babbie
And so according to Mr. Babbie, VPW then plagiarized everything because he used others ideas and didn't give proper written acknowledgement.
And I still say, so what?
Because even had Wierwille given proper written acknowledgement in all his books, would that have caused any of us to do anything any different way back when?
Would we have flocked to other ministries?
Flocked to other causes?
Would we have given less money to twi?
Not taken PFAL, not gone WOW, not gone Corps.
Gotten less committed because we saw proper written acknowledgement in the books?
I trow not.
But now that some want to prove that VPW was a monster, this adds to their repertoire of condemnation.
Can't say for sure, OM. Some of us may have preferred to go to the source for our information. Some may not have. But we were never given the truth so that we could make that choice.
Because even had Wierwille given proper written acknowledgement in all his books, would that have caused any of us to do anything any different way back when?
Oldiesman your gift for misdirection once again manifests itself.
Plagiarism is WRONG. Whether or not you took PFAL or not doesn't mean any thing. I think PFAL was crap you think it was gold but regardless plagiarism is wrong. Stick to that topic and don't try to derail and misdirect with misty eyed trips down memory lane that might make you feel better but do nothing to change the reality that VPW stole the works of others and passed them off as his own. Sorry to point out that your idol was deceptive and guilty of intellectual theft but tough.. Live with it
Stick your head and the sand or put your hands over your ears and shout "VPW is my god, VPW is my God" all you want but you are living a lie if you think VPW was a straightup guy. He was a thief. Don't let your continued and willfull ignorance of the issues relating to plagiarism be your excuse to continue letting VPW off the hook for an offense that would have his books withdrawn from publication and make him the target of a lawsuit had he published outside of the vanity press. Of course that is highly doubtful since he probably couldn't pass even the more basic forms of editorial review.
Gotten less committed because we saw proper written acknowledgement in the books?
Perhaps had a little more respect.
Perhaps would INDEED would have checked out his references..
But no, the old poop wouldn't have any of THAT.
Why is it, almost EVERY STINKING article, EVERY STINKING book, is almost a perfect copy of someone elses work? All but Christians should be Preposterous.. wouldn't suprise me to find that in an old bookstore somewhere, authored by someone else..
Hardly original. "Oh, by da vey, you OWE me big.. and the Almighty says so.."
You accuse VPW of lying, yet you lie yourself when you falsely accuse me of making VPW an idol or a God. The bible says to put away lying, so knock it off friend Diazbro.
You accuse VPW of lying, yet you lie yourself when you falsely accuse me of making VPW an idol or a God. The bible says to put away lying, so knock it off friend Diazbro.
You have a conscience only when it suits you and only when it facilitates your misdirection. The topic is plagiarism. Why can't you stick to it ?
Oh because you know (though you won't admit it)
that VPW was a plagiarist though you really,really hate to admit it.
OM does not like to read anything negative about his faddah in da verd. I just ignore him when he gets off on these annoying little tirades, like the one on the child abuse thread. (I just wish it didn't happen so often)
So, did vee pee learn about Bullinger before or after he supposedly burned all his books and stuck with only the Bible? Anyone remember when he claimed to have chucked every bit of information that came from "man"?
You have a conscience only when it suits you and only when it facilitates your misdirection. The topic is plagiarism. Why can't you stick to it ? Oh because you know (though you won't admit it) that VPW was a plagiarist though you really,really hate to admit it.
I already admitted he was, and so what?
Wouldn't have mattered back then, would it have?
Would you have changed direction had he given proper written acknowledgement?
Only matters now, cause you think it's important to point out he stole.
For what?
It's not gonna change my day or outlook on life.
Wierwille's a thief for plagiarizing, and you are a liar for falsely accusing me of idolatry.
Yep. That was right in the middle of the class. So awe inspiring.. how magnamimous- took it all to the Gehenna, the town dump, where the fires never cease..
I wonder if he burned himself grabbing all that stuff back..
Would you have changed direction had he given proper written acknowledgement?
Only matters now, cause you think it's important to point out he stole.
For what?
It's not gonna change my day or outlook on life.
Wierwille's a thief for plagiarizing, and you are a liar for falsely accusing me of idolatry.
Shame on you both.
Congratulations. You are heading in the right direction. !! Of course I never said your were an idolator. Just that you *could* jump around saying VPW was like a god (or is a god) to you. Of course that gave you an oppotrunity to derail and misdirect so you took it. But thats standard behavior. Again though I'm encouraged that you admit that about VPW. Its a big step and I mean that.
Would you have changed direction had he given proper written acknowledgement?
I repeat:
quote:
Can't say for sure, OM. Some of us may have preferred to go to the source for our information. Some may not have. But we were never given the truth so that we could make that choice.
Ham, I quite using capital letters for vee pee and craig a long time ago, so I understand. Moneyhands.... I should probably do the same with him too.
*****************
So if vee pee made his claim about throwing out all the books in the middle of the PFAL, then he was essentially leading us to believe that all of PFAL came from his widdle head, the Bible and God, wasn't he?
And, IF he was so super intelligent and so right on and teaching the word like it hadn't been taught in the first century, then why weren't all these great men beating down his door? Why didn't that raise a flag for us?
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WordWolf
It was part of the whole package. We were sold the whole package. That package was of a religious organization that was unique in that its authority and teaching were solely from the Bible, and wh
Catcup
WW
It would be great to post the passages and sentences that were actually lifted for comparison.
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Ham
I think at least half of it was in Bullinger's How to enjoy the Bible.. bits and pieces scattered around. "Verily I say unto you today" under punctuation, the lady with multi-husbands under "Context essential".. have to look later.
Seems vic just tried to collate the stuff..
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def59
Which still doesn't resolve the fact that vpw got this one wrong too.
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Belle
LOL! I'd like to say I'm surprised, but, well... I'm just surprised it took this long to find the true source of the book.
:D-->
Now we only have, what, one more book to show he plagarized and we'll have covered the whole library?
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Goey
 Here it is:
The Rich Man and Lazarus:
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skyrider
Thanks Goey.......very interesting.
:)-->
According to twi material, the book Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was introduced to E.W. Bullinger's research and work in 1953. After Rosalind Rinker gave the Companion Bible to vpw as a gift, vpw purchased and acquired all of Bullinger's work and devoured it.
Hmmmmm.....1953 - 1967 is FOURTEEN YEARS before the pfal class was filmed. And, some of these other books "of vpw" didn't go to the publishers until the mid-70s.
I find it amusing that Bullinger's article approches the subject with a question mark......"The Rich Man and Lazaruz: An Intermediate State?" And, wierwille approaches the topic in the same manner....."Are the Dead Alive Now?"
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Ham
Why does this not suprise me at all..
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diazbro
Be aware that there are VPW devotees who simply refuse to admit that VPW was guilty of plagiarism to any degree even when shown side by side comparisons. In this case I'm thinking of the RTHS book as opposed to ATDAN.
The VPW devotee usually has at least 3 arguments in this area though don't expect them to be responsive to the answers. After all they are basically still very much enchanted with the VPW "mystique" and will typically reject any and all criticisms of VPW.
1) So what if he plagiarized ? Its God's word no matter who writes it down...
Oh really ? And who says that the books "authored" by VPW are commonly accepted as being right on anyway ? Lots of his "teachings" simply combine 50s pop pyschology (believing=receiving) with teachings from Leonard and Stiles and others. So can the VPW devotee say that all those sources are "of God" ? Gee. You would have to go to the "original text" to check that out. But wait. Those words were written by someone else.. other men.. yet they neve claimed that their "research" was "god breathed" or worse, a valid substitute for the bible and reading it on your own without writing entire chapters of PFAL into the margin. VPW claimed that God showed him all this stuff. If that were true then why do we have near identity in some cases to pre-existing published works. Interesting. I mean hey this inside info that god gave VPW was supposed to be teaching the word as it hadn't been taught since the first century. Looks he got scooped by some other guys though. It must have been a trick of the "day-vil" that there were these identities.
Well the VPW addict would claim that Leonard and Stiles were "right on" simply not to the lose the argument. But VPW just repackaged what someone else wrote. In the case of the "law of believing" it was 50s pop mentality (Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz all of whom predated VPW's "law of believing" yet had extremely similar messages.
But just how does one "prove" that the so called "law of believing" works for saint or sinner alike. It failed miserably for VPW and its failed for many people and this was supposed to be the foundation of the foundational class ! And this is but ONE example of the flawed teachings of PFAL. And "get your needs and wants parallel" ! What the HELL did that ever mean and how would you do that ? I never got the same explanation twice from anyone in TWI not even from the so called "heavyweights". One guy just said "well you just have to accept some things without analyzing it too much". Wow. Such helpful instruction. And it was supposed to "mathematically exact" and "scientifically precise" though no one could explain it.
2) "VPW didn't plagiarize. Why back at a Corps meeting I heard him openly credit Stiles and Leonard so he fulfilled his obligation".
Wrong.... There are accepted practices for acknowledging the works of others as you prepare and publish your own work. These practices require complaince with style standards all of which demand a bibliography and proper footnotes
even when paraphrasing the words of another. Verbal attribution is NOT an acceptable substitute for proper, written acknowledgement. Not doing so in academic settings and legitimate publishing circles can be a career ender.
VPW self published through TWI (aka "vanity published") to escape the usual and customary editorial review processes that accompany the publication of books.
There were no editors (at least not anyone who wasn't a yes man for Vic) to say "well this looks like something else I've seen before" or to say "are you sure you have submitted your complete bibliography" or "wow. you make some interesting conclusions here. When did this idea come to you ? Is this an extension of your doctoral thesis ?" Vic didnt' want that scrutiny because he was anxious to publish and he could not be bothered with the heat (and rejection) he would endure had he attempted publication through established christian publication houses or academic journals. Its trivial to set up your
own publishing house and pay for someone to bind your "masterpiece". After all if its written down then it MUST be true right ?
Even more discouraging is an astonishing lack of understanding among many Way followers (past and present) that plagiarism is a very,very serious offense in academic circles that can end a career. Since VPW did have some legitimate education he would have known this (though his "doctorate" was a joke which the devotees still have problems admitting). But just because a given Way follower is ignorant of the graivty of plagiarism doesn't mean that he or she can let VPW off the hook for ripping off someone else.
3) If VPW did plagiarize then why wasn't he pursued by Stiles and Leonard or Bullinger ? Obviously they didn't care so its all good therefore no wrong was done.
Who knows ? Were they even aware that it had happened ? WHEN were they made aware ? Do you know for sure or is it specualtion on your part ? Even if they did know about early on and refused to do anything about it, its still WRONG ! Thats like saying that stealing anything is fine and as long as you don't punished its not a crime ! Or that the person you stole from doesn't seem to care that you did steal so it must be okay. Thats some whacked biblical logic yet many former Way supporters think like this relative to VPW. Baloney...Of course its a crime you just didn't get punished for it. Count yourself lucky. Stealing from someone is always wrong whether or not the victim knows about it or even if he doesn't seem to care.
Check out some web resources on plagiarism. Do your own web search but here are a
couple to get started.
http://www.csubak.edu/ssric/Modules/Other/plagiarism.htm
http://www.web-miner.com/plagiarism
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Bullinger was dead by the time Wierwille did PFAL, as was Ruben Archer Torrey, Smith Wigglesworth, Albert Benjamin Simpson. Cliffe, Starr Daily , Glenn Clark, Edward William Kenyon(Dead by 1947), Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, Robert Schuller, Kenneth Hagin, Jerome Edwin Stiles, Brian George(or is it Gregory?)
Leonard did not have the time or money or knowledge to pursue it.
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oldiesman
And so according to Mr. Babbie, VPW then plagiarized everything because he used others ideas and didn't give proper written acknowledgement.
And I still say, so what?
Because even had Wierwille given proper written acknowledgement in all his books, would that have caused any of us to do anything any different way back when?
Would we have flocked to other ministries?
Flocked to other causes?
Would we have given less money to twi?
Not taken PFAL, not gone WOW, not gone Corps.
Gotten less committed because we saw proper written acknowledgement in the books?
I trow not.
But now that some want to prove that VPW was a monster, this adds to their repertoire of condemnation.
Well, congratulations!
And I still say, so what?
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Belle
Can't say for sure, OM. Some of us may have preferred to go to the source for our information. Some may not have. But we were never given the truth so that we could make that choice.
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diazbro
Oldiesman said:
Oldiesman your gift for misdirection once again manifests itself.
Plagiarism is WRONG. Whether or not you took PFAL or not doesn't mean any thing. I think PFAL was crap you think it was gold but regardless plagiarism is wrong. Stick to that topic and don't try to derail and misdirect with misty eyed trips down memory lane that might make you feel better but do nothing to change the reality that VPW stole the works of others and passed them off as his own. Sorry to point out that your idol was deceptive and guilty of intellectual theft but tough.. Live with it
Stick your head and the sand or put your hands over your ears and shout "VPW is my god, VPW is my God" all you want but you are living a lie if you think VPW was a straightup guy. He was a thief. Don't let your continued and willfull ignorance of the issues relating to plagiarism be your excuse to continue letting VPW off the hook for an offense that would have his books withdrawn from publication and make him the target of a lawsuit had he published outside of the vanity press. Of course that is highly doubtful since he probably couldn't pass even the more basic forms of editorial review.
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Ham
Perhaps had a little more respect.
Perhaps would INDEED would have checked out his references..
But no, the old poop wouldn't have any of THAT.
Why is it, almost EVERY STINKING article, EVERY STINKING book, is almost a perfect copy of someone elses work? All but Christians should be Preposterous.. wouldn't suprise me to find that in an old bookstore somewhere, authored by someone else..
Hardly original. "Oh, by da vey, you OWE me big.. and the Almighty says so.."
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Ham
In the words of da "Master"- "so WHAT then, if there are two crucified, or four.. if Jesus died on Wed. instead of good friday.."
For a stickler on "accuracy", the old poop sure missed a lot of "details"..
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oldiesman
You accuse VPW of lying, yet you lie yourself when you falsely accuse me of making VPW an idol or a God. The bible says to put away lying, so knock it off friend Diazbro.
And your point is VPW was a thief?Congratulations!
You win the Wierwille Was A Thief Reminder Award!
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diazbro
You have a conscience only when it suits you and only when it facilitates your misdirection. The topic is plagiarism. Why can't you stick to it ?
Oh because you know (though you won't admit it)
that VPW was a plagiarist though you really,really hate to admit it.
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Belle
OM does not like to read anything negative about his faddah in da verd. I just ignore him when he gets off on these annoying little tirades, like the one on the child abuse thread. (I just wish it didn't happen so often)
So, did vee pee learn about Bullinger before or after he supposedly burned all his books and stuck with only the Bible? Anyone remember when he claimed to have chucked every bit of information that came from "man"?
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oldiesman
Wouldn't have mattered back then, would it have?
Would you have changed direction had he given proper written acknowledgement?
Only matters now, cause you think it's important to point out he stole.
For what?
It's not gonna change my day or outlook on life.
Wierwille's a thief for plagiarizing, and you are a liar for falsely accusing me of idolatry.
Shame on you both.
Shame shame shame on you both.
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Ham
Yep. That was right in the middle of the class. So awe inspiring.. how magnamimous- took it all to the Gehenna, the town dump, where the fires never cease..
I wonder if he burned himself grabbing all that stuff back..
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Ham
Oldies, its not gonna change mine either.
It does however, greatly change my opinion of vic.
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diazbro
Congratulations. You are heading in the right direction. !! Of course I never said your were an idolator. Just that you *could* jump around saying VPW was like a god (or is a god) to you. Of course that gave you an oppotrunity to derail and misdirect so you took it. But thats standard behavior. Again though I'm encouraged that you admit that about VPW. Its a big step and I mean that.
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Ham
Can't even give him a capital "v" when I type anymore..
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Belle
I repeat:
Ham, I quite using capital letters for vee pee and craig a long time ago, so I understand. Moneyhands.... I should probably do the same with him too.
*****************
So if vee pee made his claim about throwing out all the books in the middle of the PFAL, then he was essentially leading us to believe that all of PFAL came from his widdle head, the Bible and God, wasn't he?
And, IF he was so super intelligent and so right on and teaching the word like it hadn't been taught in the first century, then why weren't all these great men beating down his door? Why didn't that raise a flag for us?
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Ham
Why? Alas, I was- gullible. One of my friends around here call it Y and D- Young and Dumb.
vic, on the other hand, was OLD and CUNNING. Quite the cunning plagiarist..
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